<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss
version="2.0"
xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
xmlns:itunes="http://www.itunes.com/dtds/podcast-1.0.dtd"
xmlns:media="http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/"
> <channel><title>Comments on: Whatever Happened to the Catholic Church?; and a response</title> <atom:link href="http://www.PieAndCoffee.org/2006/07/31/whatever-happened-to-the-catholic-church-and-a-response/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" /><link>http://www.PieAndCoffee.org/2006/07/31/whatever-happened-to-the-catholic-church-and-a-response/</link> <description>&#34;When things speed up hierarchy disappears and global theater sets in.&#34; --Marshall McLuhan</description> <lastBuildDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 21:46:19 +0000</lastBuildDate> <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod> <sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency> <generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator> <item><title>By: Adam (Southern California)</title><link>http://www.PieAndCoffee.org/2006/07/31/whatever-happened-to-the-catholic-church-and-a-response/comment-page-1/#comment-3616</link> <dc:creator>Adam (Southern California)</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 02 Aug 2006 06:47:53 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.PieAndCoffee.org/2006/07/31/whatever-happened-to-the-catholic-church-and-a-response/#comment-3616</guid> <description>Larry -- I&#039;m not sure if you were writing in response to me, but if you were, let me reassure you that while I may criticize the Church harshly, I am still proud to be a Catholic and feel that the Church is and has been a tremendous force for good in this world. The Church has its problems, but by and large these are small compared to the essential truth that the Church teaches every day.
I fear sometimes that non-Catholics&#039; impressions of the Church are formed too much by the hot-button issues they hear discussed in the media, as if they&#039;d walk into Mass and hear nothing but railing against feminism and gays or something like that. Then there&#039;s the old slander against the Church that we never read the Bible. Obviously this isn&#039;t true at all. If these people were to actually attend a Mass, they&#039;d hear quite a lot of the Word of God, and a homily about any of a variety of ways in which we can strengthen our lives in Christ.
So when I criticize the Church, understand that I do so as a faithful member of that church, in the context of reforms I would like to see in the Church to make it stronger, not as condemnations of an institution I would like to see brought down.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Larry &#8212; I&#8217;m not sure if you were writing in response to me, but if you were, let me reassure you that while I may criticize the Church harshly, I am still proud to be a Catholic and feel that the Church is and has been a tremendous force for good in this world. The Church has its problems, but by and large these are small compared to the essential truth that the Church teaches every day.</p><p>I fear sometimes that non-Catholics&#8217; impressions of the Church are formed too much by the hot-button issues they hear discussed in the media, as if they&#8217;d walk into Mass and hear nothing but railing against feminism and gays or something like that. Then there&#8217;s the old slander against the Church that we never read the Bible. Obviously this isn&#8217;t true at all. If these people were to actually attend a Mass, they&#8217;d hear quite a lot of the Word of God, and a homily about any of a variety of ways in which we can strengthen our lives in Christ.</p><p>So when I criticize the Church, understand that I do so as a faithful member of that church, in the context of reforms I would like to see in the Church to make it stronger, not as condemnations of an institution I would like to see brought down.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Dr Kaihsu Tai (Oxford, England)</title><link>http://www.PieAndCoffee.org/2006/07/31/whatever-happened-to-the-catholic-church-and-a-response/comment-page-1/#comment-3608</link> <dc:creator>Dr Kaihsu Tai (Oxford, England)</dc:creator> <pubDate>Tue, 01 Aug 2006 10:54:48 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.PieAndCoffee.org/2006/07/31/whatever-happened-to-the-catholic-church-and-a-response/#comment-3608</guid> <description>This following statement is an uncomfortable starting-point for an ecumenical discussion: &#039;Her [the (Catholic?) Church&#039;s] structure is divinely ordained, therefore it is not up for grabs, or able to be “reformed away;” nor would it be desirable to do so.&#039;  This is a better starting-point: &#039;The Nicene creed is common to all the great churches, east and west, and so is a valid rule for comparison with any claims about Christianity.&#039;</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This following statement is an uncomfortable starting-point for an ecumenical discussion: &#8216;Her [the (Catholic?) Church's] structure is divinely ordained, therefore it is not up for grabs, or able to be “reformed away;” nor would it be desirable to do so.&#8217;  This is a better starting-point: &#8216;The Nicene creed is common to all the great churches, east and west, and so is a valid rule for comparison with any claims about Christianity.&#8217;</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: larry</title><link>http://www.PieAndCoffee.org/2006/07/31/whatever-happened-to-the-catholic-church-and-a-response/comment-page-1/#comment-3600</link> <dc:creator>larry</dc:creator> <pubDate>Tue, 01 Aug 2006 00:09:20 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.PieAndCoffee.org/2006/07/31/whatever-happened-to-the-catholic-church-and-a-response/#comment-3600</guid> <description>You know, when people speak of the Catholic church, its actions, practices, beliefs etc. they think as if they are all the same - same degree of seriousness; staying the same or change is of equal gravity; if you make a mistake in one it means you&#039;ve probably made a mistake in other areas.  It&#039;s nuts!  Ok, the church is run by humans - fallible, limited and sinful.  I&#039;ve heard this forever and of course it&#039;s true.  That does not mean at its core, what the church done is wrong or not what Jesus said - it means that while humans attempt to put into practice what Jesus, Paul and the apostles taught (and other followers of Jesus) we will go so far at times, and not so far other times.  It means we will not understand the full meaning of our decisions or Jesus&#039; teachings every time.  It means the church at times will make great mistakes - but so did the chosen people, the Jews, throughout their history - leaders committing grevious sins, the people not listening to the prophets, leaving God, coming back, idolatry, etc. But amid all of this, they remained God&#039;s &#039;chosen people&#039;.
The church remains &#039;the church&#039; with linage from Jesus, through the apostles, Paul, followers of Jesus, the Fathers of the Church, the popes and the Church community over the centuries.  Actions of any one pope or leader, good or bad, does not completely make or break the church.  Catholic spirit, energy and effect on the world is strong or weaker at different times in history.  Catholics follow well teachings of the church and sometimes are lax in great numbers.  That does not mean the church is not effective - it may mean people are not plugged into what is the church&#039;s essential nature and message.
It&#039;s too easy to say - if you have a lot of numbers, you must be doing something right - that&#039;s secular thinking.  Of course concern when numbers of people stop attending or change churches is a concern but that does not mean the church is not true to iteslf.  It may mean today leaders are not effective as examples, are bad examples, people are interested in other things and they are flaky these days.
Hans Kung is to be admired but he is not an example of solid catholic teaching, even if he is still on friendly terms with the pope, Benedict XVI.  As much as I admire Dorthy Day and Peter Maurin and they have many things to say about faith, the church in the world, prayer and the poor, they are but one small part of the church&#039;s voice - since the church is the people of the faithful.  I&#039;ve read the Catholic Worker for years and studied Hans Kung&#039;s writings.
I don&#039;t like all thing our leaders in this country have done in handling scandles, problems, and issues.  I can disagree with how they do things but what is part of our faith, that is where I fall into line - Style and approach can always be criticized - Scandal can always be condemned but that does not take away the power of the person in the office - it&#039;s the office and this happens to be the person there now -
I have to believe the Holy Spirit guides us in all, and our mistakes, errors, scandals and problems are a combination of our own ego, limits, shortsightedness, dealing with other problems of the world, personalities, politics, sin, evil, etc.  We make our way through this and eventually come out with what we need.  Vatican II happened about 40 - 50 years ago and some changes have been made, but in the history of the church or any great institution, that is not a lot of time.  Leaders and the faithful need to get back on board to what Vatican II taught and what else we have learned since then about us, the church, the world and our relationship with God the Father, Son, Holy Spirit.  A great spirituality energy is now present that I have not seen before - we were more religious before, more in lock step, and faithful - we are still religious but for the purpose of being more spiritual - a symbol of God&#039;s presence in the world. Organizations as Opus Dei and groups affiliated with relgious organizations help the laity plug into what is possible to do with our Catholic practices and belief systems.
Having looked at cultures, other religions - eastern, western, latin american, etc. - I have found the catholic church has a lot to offer including the insightes found in other faiths.  We often don&#039;t use our system beyond the religious practices as an end.  They are a means to an end - contact with the presence, energy, grace of God.  It&#039;s a great system - sacraments, sacramentals, religious practices, Mary, saints, magisterium, the bible, the laity, tradition, religious orders, lay organizations &amp; involvement, clergy, churches, prayers (what&#039;s in your heart and read prayers), charities, missionary work, etc.
There are many flaws in the church, and we need to correct them - but the church has so much to offer and has a grand history of doing just this in the world.  What would Jesus Do?  Look to the life of the church in its entirity, not just one slice of history.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, when people speak of the Catholic church, its actions, practices, beliefs etc. they think as if they are all the same &#8211; same degree of seriousness; staying the same or change is of equal gravity; if you make a mistake in one it means you&#8217;ve probably made a mistake in other areas.  It&#8217;s nuts!  Ok, the church is run by humans &#8211; fallible, limited and sinful.  I&#8217;ve heard this forever and of course it&#8217;s true.  That does not mean at its core, what the church done is wrong or not what Jesus said &#8211; it means that while humans attempt to put into practice what Jesus, Paul and the apostles taught (and other followers of Jesus) we will go so far at times, and not so far other times.  It means we will not understand the full meaning of our decisions or Jesus&#8217; teachings every time.  It means the church at times will make great mistakes &#8211; but so did the chosen people, the Jews, throughout their history &#8211; leaders committing grevious sins, the people not listening to the prophets, leaving God, coming back, idolatry, etc. But amid all of this, they remained God&#8217;s &#8216;chosen people&#8217;.</p><p>The church remains &#8216;the church&#8217; with linage from Jesus, through the apostles, Paul, followers of Jesus, the Fathers of the Church, the popes and the Church community over the centuries.  Actions of any one pope or leader, good or bad, does not completely make or break the church.  Catholic spirit, energy and effect on the world is strong or weaker at different times in history.  Catholics follow well teachings of the church and sometimes are lax in great numbers.  That does not mean the church is not effective &#8211; it may mean people are not plugged into what is the church&#8217;s essential nature and message.</p><p>It&#8217;s too easy to say &#8211; if you have a lot of numbers, you must be doing something right &#8211; that&#8217;s secular thinking.  Of course concern when numbers of people stop attending or change churches is a concern but that does not mean the church is not true to iteslf.  It may mean today leaders are not effective as examples, are bad examples, people are interested in other things and they are flaky these days.</p><p>Hans Kung is to be admired but he is not an example of solid catholic teaching, even if he is still on friendly terms with the pope, Benedict XVI.  As much as I admire Dorthy Day and Peter Maurin and they have many things to say about faith, the church in the world, prayer and the poor, they are but one small part of the church&#8217;s voice &#8211; since the church is the people of the faithful.  I&#8217;ve read the Catholic Worker for years and studied Hans Kung&#8217;s writings.</p><p>I don&#8217;t like all thing our leaders in this country have done in handling scandles, problems, and issues.  I can disagree with how they do things but what is part of our faith, that is where I fall into line &#8211; Style and approach can always be criticized &#8211; Scandal can always be condemned but that does not take away the power of the person in the office &#8211; it&#8217;s the office and this happens to be the person there now -</p><p>I have to believe the Holy Spirit guides us in all, and our mistakes, errors, scandals and problems are a combination of our own ego, limits, shortsightedness, dealing with other problems of the world, personalities, politics, sin, evil, etc.  We make our way through this and eventually come out with what we need.  Vatican II happened about 40 &#8211; 50 years ago and some changes have been made, but in the history of the church or any great institution, that is not a lot of time.  Leaders and the faithful need to get back on board to what Vatican II taught and what else we have learned since then about us, the church, the world and our relationship with God the Father, Son, Holy Spirit.  A great spirituality energy is now present that I have not seen before &#8211; we were more religious before, more in lock step, and faithful &#8211; we are still religious but for the purpose of being more spiritual &#8211; a symbol of God&#8217;s presence in the world. Organizations as Opus Dei and groups affiliated with relgious organizations help the laity plug into what is possible to do with our Catholic practices and belief systems.</p><p>Having looked at cultures, other religions &#8211; eastern, western, latin american, etc. &#8211; I have found the catholic church has a lot to offer including the insightes found in other faiths.  We often don&#8217;t use our system beyond the religious practices as an end.  They are a means to an end &#8211; contact with the presence, energy, grace of God.  It&#8217;s a great system &#8211; sacraments, sacramentals, religious practices, Mary, saints, magisterium, the bible, the laity, tradition, religious orders, lay organizations &amp; involvement, clergy, churches, prayers (what&#8217;s in your heart and read prayers), charities, missionary work, etc.</p><p>There are many flaws in the church, and we need to correct them &#8211; but the church has so much to offer and has a grand history of doing just this in the world.  What would Jesus Do?  Look to the life of the church in its entirity, not just one slice of history.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Adam (Southern California)</title><link>http://www.PieAndCoffee.org/2006/07/31/whatever-happened-to-the-catholic-church-and-a-response/comment-page-1/#comment-3596</link> <dc:creator>Adam (Southern California)</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 31 Jul 2006 20:42:44 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.PieAndCoffee.org/2006/07/31/whatever-happened-to-the-catholic-church-and-a-response/#comment-3596</guid> <description>Nevertheless, it is in fact persons with homosexual tendencies, not merely those who engage in homosexual acts, who are today barred from entering the seminary to study for the priesthood. Not only is this harmful from a practical sense for a church in desperate need of new priests, but it reflects a very disturbing break from previous church tradition decrying homosexual acts, but not persons. In essence, a man with homosexual attraction --- and thus unable to fulfill his life in Christ through marriage --- is now told that his disorder is a sin of the unforgiveable kind.
As for other matters, let me emphasize that whether or not the flock follows or agrees with a particular teaching of the Church is by no means proof of the validity of that teaching. It can, however, be instructive. Many Catholics, for example, recognize the truth that abortion is the destruction of a human life. At the same time, however, they recognize the distinction between abortion and contraception and, by extension the value of non-procreative sex as an expression of the beautiful love between two people.
The pedophilia scandals, which have not been resolved or remedied to any reasonable person&#039;s satisfaction, have revealed that those charged with revealing the truth of God&#039;s love --- the priests and the bishops --- can be seriously crippled when distinguishing for themselves the difference between sexual acts as expressions of eros and commitment and sexual acts as expressions of selfish, lustful exploitation.
Mr. Tumeinski blurs the distinction between the truth and the teachings of the bishops. As he says, the Church is like the moon, whose only light is that reflected from the sun (or the Son, as it were). While this reflection is a valuable guide for leading men to the way of Christ, such a reflection can at times be found to be less than perfect. I would not think to suggest that the Church change its teachings in any way but one that leads us closer to Christ, but the Church should be careful in examining whether its decisions truly do lead us in that direction. The truth exists independent of what the bishops proclaim that truth to be.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nevertheless, it is in fact persons with homosexual tendencies, not merely those who engage in homosexual acts, who are today barred from entering the seminary to study for the priesthood. Not only is this harmful from a practical sense for a church in desperate need of new priests, but it reflects a very disturbing break from previous church tradition decrying homosexual acts, but not persons. In essence, a man with homosexual attraction &#8212; and thus unable to fulfill his life in Christ through marriage &#8212; is now told that his disorder is a sin of the unforgiveable kind.</p><p>As for other matters, let me emphasize that whether or not the flock follows or agrees with a particular teaching of the Church is by no means proof of the validity of that teaching. It can, however, be instructive. Many Catholics, for example, recognize the truth that abortion is the destruction of a human life. At the same time, however, they recognize the distinction between abortion and contraception and, by extension the value of non-procreative sex as an expression of the beautiful love between two people.</p><p>The pedophilia scandals, which have not been resolved or remedied to any reasonable person&#8217;s satisfaction, have revealed that those charged with revealing the truth of God&#8217;s love &#8212; the priests and the bishops &#8212; can be seriously crippled when distinguishing for themselves the difference between sexual acts as expressions of eros and commitment and sexual acts as expressions of selfish, lustful exploitation.</p><p>Mr. Tumeinski blurs the distinction between the truth and the teachings of the bishops. As he says, the Church is like the moon, whose only light is that reflected from the sun (or the Son, as it were). While this reflection is a valuable guide for leading men to the way of Christ, such a reflection can at times be found to be less than perfect. I would not think to suggest that the Church change its teachings in any way but one that leads us closer to Christ, but the Church should be careful in examining whether its decisions truly do lead us in that direction. The truth exists independent of what the bishops proclaim that truth to be.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: xradiographer</title><link>http://www.PieAndCoffee.org/2006/07/31/whatever-happened-to-the-catholic-church-and-a-response/comment-page-1/#comment-3595</link> <dc:creator>xradiographer</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 31 Jul 2006 20:37:50 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.PieAndCoffee.org/2006/07/31/whatever-happened-to-the-catholic-church-and-a-response/#comment-3595</guid> <description>Well, that&#039;s certainly a confusing &quot;response.&quot; One thing certainly stood out to me, though:
&lt;blockquote&gt;You claim that the Church discriminates against homosexuals. Actually, the teaching of the Church decries such discrimination.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
The teachings of the Church and the actions of the Church have not always been unified.
Mr. Tumeinski appears to focus on details and minutae, and to miss a larger picture.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, that&#8217;s certainly a confusing &#8220;response.&#8221; One thing certainly stood out to me, though:</p><blockquote><p>You claim that the Church discriminates against homosexuals. Actually, the teaching of the Church decries such discrimination.</p></blockquote><p>The teachings of the Church and the actions of the Church have not always been unified.</p><p>Mr. Tumeinski appears to focus on details and minutae, and to miss a larger picture.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> </channel> </rss>
