Bruce “Snow Ghost” Russell and I are doing a new cable access show! It’s called The Silver Mountain and the episodes will begin running at 9am and 11pm Saturdays, and 6pm Sundays, on WCCA TV13 in Worcester.

We’re very pleased that the first episode features our old pal Brenna Cussen talking about Catholic anarchism, with our other pal Anne Lewenberg representing the secular anarchists. Great folks talking about the things that move them: expect nothing less from the Snow Ghost.

I talked with her a few days after the trial.

Download the mp3 or see more formats.

Download the mp3 or see more formats.

To remember the anniversary of this event, which continues to bear fruit today, we talked with Catonsville Nine member (and our housemate) Tom Lewis. Also part of the conversation is long-time peace activist Emeritus Professor Michael D. True, Ph.D. and Doctor of Humane Letters (honoris causa).

Bruce: . . . I already was elected.

Pie and Coffee: Elected to what?

B: Elected to make a difference in the world and in people’s lives. And I’ve already succeeded.

P: Let me ask you a question about the Q coffeehouse on Chandler Street.

B: OK, shoot.

P: What do you think of it?

B: For my first time being there, I thought it was pretty good.

P: What was the coffee like?

B: It didn’t stay hot very long.

P: How was the flavor?

B: It was pretty good.

P: Did you have trouble getting it prepared like you wanted it?

B: Ah . . . no, not really.

P: Y’know, I think that place opened when I was out of town, because I remember the week it opened–whoever was doing promotion did a great job as far as I’m concerned. I got 6 e-mails from 6 sources saying Hey, there’s this great new place. More recently, I heard this second wave of opinion, that this place was terrible. And then very recently I’ve heard people say Actually, it’s pretty good. And my experience there was positive.

We saw a show there. What did you think?

B: I thought the first band was pretty good.

P: I Hate Zen Heart.

B: That kid who was singing, he goes, “Ours is the only website you’re gonna find, unless it’s a death metal band.” And I said, “Suppose it was black metal. Let’s hear it for the black metal people!” And everybody just like: “Sheee-yaaaahhh!”

P: There was a huge crowd there, all kinds of people.

B: A famous person showed up.

P: Who was that?

B: Me, myself, and Billy Blue. Everybody there recognized me.

P: I had a woman come up to me after Jacob Berendes played and she said, “Aren’t you on Volcanoboy? I recognize you from your photo.” And she told me who she was. It’s great to meet somebody from the Internet in real life.

The great artist John Guida was there.

Y’know, the Q is taking over some of the cultural responsibilities that the Java Hut once had.

B: I kinda get the same vibe. Would you call I Hate Zen Heart folk or what?

P: Maybe a punk thing. Jacob was doing his . . .

B: Storytelling.

P: Like a bard.

B: I was looking at his amp. He had a Gorilla amp. I haven’t seen those in a dog’s age. I go, “Hey, I didn’t know they let animals in here!” “They let you in here!” “Well I’m the Snow Ghost, my friend!” I was commenting on his amp!

P: I know, I told him that. He knows you weren’t calling him an animal.

B: As long as we can bust each other’s chops and nobody takes it the wrong way.

P: If you had to sum up the Q in one sentence, what would that sentence be?

B: Does anybody need a Q?

But not Barry Switzer.

Pie and Coffee: Are we going to talk about coffee first, or Barry Switzer first?

Mark: Whatever you want. I don’t care.

P: I’m drinking this cup of coffee. This is not the greatest cup of coffee I’ve ever had.

M: Yeah, it’s okay coffee, but it’s not–

Sarah: I’d say it’s solid.

M: I’d say it’s fine. I mean, that’s the thing, it’s perfectly acceptable.

S: Don’t you think it lost some flavor? Because this is a pretty flavorful coffee.

M: Yeah, it tastes a little bland.

P: Weaker than yesterday?

M: It just tastes bland. It doesn’t taste watery.

P: Do you think the water wasn’t hot enough?

M: No, it was plenty hot.

S: Yeah, it was definitely hot enough.

M: I made a cup at my house with better coffee, and it was better.

P: How long have you had the Aeropress?

M: Didn’t you give it to me last year for Christmas?

P: But this is not the regular way you make coffee.

M: I’ve only used it like 5 times.

P: So that’s what I’m saying. You don’t feel the results were amazing.

M: No. The testimonials on the container about how it’s the best cup of coffee ever, either they know a secret to making it better than I do using this machine, by following other directions, or I don’t know. I mean it’s fine. It’s nice if you only have to make 1 cup, cause then you don’t have to mess with the machine, and it’s pretty quick.

P: I often think about that, when I’m only making one cup of coffee for myself when I’m travelling, using somebody’s office or house. I think, Why am I going through all the trouble of firing up this coffee machine.

S: It seems like a lot to carry. Why not a French press?

M: The Aeropress has advantages over the French press. The primary advantage that they claim to have over the French press is A, it doesn’t take as long. Because it’s only supposed to soak for like 10 seconds.

S: Yeah, French press you let it sit for maybe like 5 minutes.

M: And you won’t get grounds in your coffee. French press, you often get grounds in there, depending on the grind of your coffee.

S: No, not necessarily. The thing with the French press is you can have it as dark as you like it.

M: You can do this with this too. You just add more coffee.

S: But it’s a lot of stuff to carry around.

P: Aren’t the French presses usually made out of glass?

M: Yeah, a French press isn’t very portable, because it could break easily.

S: This is plastic, but it has a lot more pieces.

M: It has more pieces, but that’s not a problem. It looks irritating but it’s really not. Like one of those pieces you can get rid of.

P: Do you feel like the coffee that comes out of this is actually bad coffee?

M: No! It makes a perfectly fine cup of coffee. I’m just saying it’s not any better than regular drip coffee.

P: Do we need to talk about Barry Switzer?

M: Not yet, because I haven’t read the article. Basically, if you only have a cup of coffee at a time, or you’re travelling, this coffee maker is worthwhile. If you, like me, always have 2 cups of coffee in the morning, it’s irritating. Because then you have to go make the second one. You have to redo the water, redo everything to make the second cup of coffee. When I’ve made espresso with it, it’s basically as good as espresso machines. It’s not like Italian machine espresso, but like home machine.

S: I had a really good espresso at that Tapas & Tintos place I went to in South Beach. Just FYI.

P: You want to talk about the Golden Girls? Speaking of South Beach. Did the Golden Girls live in South Beach?

S: No, they just lived in Miami.

P: But now you have the entire Golden Girls in DVD.

S: I do. I’m pretty stoked about that.

P: How many seasons were there of that show?

S: Seven.

P: I would have thought there were more, for some reason.

M: There was also “Golden Palace.”

S: Yeah, that was a spinoff show. Seven seasons, but they had a lot of shows back then. So 7 seasons was like…

M: It’s like 22 or 24 episodes a season.

S: I don’t think they make that many shows these days. So that’s like 14 seasons.

P: There’s like hundreds of episodes of the Golden Girls. [180]

S: Yeah.

P: Have you ever thought about why you’re attracted to the show? It’s not really set up for your demographic. [Sarah is by far the youngest person in this conversation.]

S: Well, it’s smart. The writing’s good. It’s funny. It’s about women. I like women. Bea Arthur reminds me of my grandmother, who was very funny and smart.

P: I like Bea Arthur a lot.

S: I grew up watching it, and it’s stuck with me.

P: I think Bea Arthur is a big animal rights person. [Actually, animal welfare.]

S: Well, I know Betty White is.

P: I think Bea Arthur is a big radical. I think she has an FBI file.

S: She could be. The show is pretty progressive. They talk about all sorts of issues. Especially women’s issues that a lot of shows don’t talk about. They don’t deal with like–

P: People having a stroke.

S: Menopause, or losing your sexualness as you get older. And it’s just about older women. I mean how many shows are about old women? It’s progressive in the way they all live together, and they all are a family in that way. “We love men, but we love each other too.”

P: They have a brotherhood of sisterhood, or something.

M: You could just call it sisterhood.

P: You know some people, and I don’t know if this is a misogynist mischaracterization or what, talk about how women seem to have trouble getting along. So I think it’s good to have a show with a role model of long-term friendships.

S: And it’s not always easy for them.

P: They have different personalities.

S: They’re all very different, but they make it work. They have arguments and falling-outs, but they always figure a way to come back together and forgive each other. Like in any relationship.

P: I think it’s kind of genius how Estelle Getty plays the really old one, cause she’s not that old.

S: I think she’s actually younger than everyone else.

P: It’s like when Andy Warhol started wearing that silver wig, when he was in his 20s in New York. Word got back to him that people would say, “That Andy Warhol, he’s so spry.” People thought he was in his 50s! It’s the same thing when Estelle Getty puts on a gray wig. “She’s so feisty for a woman in her 90s!”

M: And then she was in “Stop or My Mom Will Shoot,” right?

S: Yeah.

P: We should point out that our grandfather, who’s in his 90s, left in the middle of this discussion of the Golden Girls. He didn’t care to hear about this.

S: Also what I like about the Golden Girls is that with my grandparents, we could all watch the Golden Girls and enjoy it together.

P: They don’t think it’s a little too racy of a show?

S: No. They love it. They think it’s hilarious. I think it stands the test of time. It ended what, like 12 years ago?

M: It ended in ’91, maybe. [1992]

S: It ended a really long time ago.

M: It’s a shame that “Golden Palace” was no good.

S: You know, how it ends is one of them gets married and moves away. Which, I don’t know if I would have ended it that way . . . .

P: Who gets married? Betty White?

S: No.

P: Rue McClanahan?

S: No. Bea Arthur.

P: What!

S: That actually is the genius part, because she’s always like the ugly one, or the mannish one, the one that doesn’t get dates. But she ends up marrying Leslie Nielson, who is Rue McClanahan’s cousin or something.

P: Wow.

S: At first they hate each other. And then they fall in love.

P: Then she watches some of his films.

S: On the one hand it’s genius to marry off Dorothy, on the other hand it’s kind of sad. Why does it have to be that way?

P: Why is it the end of their friendship?

S: Well it’s not the end of their friendship, but it means that Dorothy’s going to move out, and they’re not going to live together.

P: If I remember right they’re just sort of leeching off her. She has this nice apartment.

S: No, they all live in Blanche Devereaux’s house. But they all pay rent. They all pay for their keep. No one’s freeloading off anyone else.

P: So really this was this seven year period in their senior years where their lives have been disrupted, they came together to form this tight group, and after seven years . . . .

M: Oh, I don’t know if it was diegetic time.

P: Oh, it is.

S: It’s probably more than that . . . .

P: It was kinda like “24.” They kept close tabs on the year-to-year progress.

S: They have a lot of jokes of the times that I sometimes don’t get.

P: Mondale stuff?

S: Just like whatever, which were probably really hilarious at the time but I have no idea what they’re talking about.

M: I think there are Dukakis jokes.

P: Wow.

M: There’s definitely a Bernie Goetz joke.

S: And you know they have that song. That Andrew Gold song.

P: It’s a good song.

S: We looked up the lyrics. There are more lyrics, and the rest of the lyrics aren’t as good.

M: He was really forcing it, to try to flesh out a full song.

S: I have a Golden Girls t-shirt. It says “Stay Golden.” And I was at the Oakland Mall . . . .

M: It has a drawing of all the Golden Girls.

S: I was at the Oakland Mall in Michigan, on 14 Mile and John R, and I was walking by this store, and this guy was like, “Hey, Golden Girls!” He was like all about my shirt. We gave each other high-fives. It was unexpected.

M: It’s a good show. It’s a real good show.

S: There’s hijinx.

M: It’s a show that stands up.

P: I would say that shows with a related setup, like “Friends,” I find have not worn well.

S: People really like “Friends,” but I think it’s got garbage writing. As opposed to the Golden Girls, which has quality writing.

P: Plus, all of the characters on “Friends,” I feel like if I met these characters in real life, I would not like them.

S: I wouldn’t like them either.

P: I like to watch them tear each other apart. Whereas the Golden Girls, if I ran into Sofia, I would think, “This is a good person.”

S: The characters feel a lot more real. They have jobs and actual struggles. They have ex-husbands, and dead husbands, and boyfriends. Money problems.

M: I like that it’s in Miami. You don’t see a lot of shows in Miami besides Golden Girls and “Miami Vice.”

P: Did Don Johnson ever guest on Golden Girls?

M: No, but Burt Reynolds did. We’re showing the episode with Burt Reynolds next semester.

S: Also George Clooney.

P: Wait a minute, back up to Burt Reynolds. You’re showing this in a class you’re teaching?

M: In “Introduction to Media,” we have a unit on television. And one of our screenings is about gender on television, and so we’re going to show the Burt Reynolds episode of the Golden Girls.

S: Mista Burt Reynolds. They love Burt Reynolds. Now I feel like a lot of actors got their early TV appearances on the Golden Girls.

P: Is Burt Reynolds as himself?

S: Yeah, Mista Burt Reynolds. They’re going to like his concert.

P: Concert?

S: Yeah, I think that’s the one where they go to jail, because they stay at this hotel where there’s a prostitute ring, and the cops bust the place and think that they’re old hookers. It’s a really good episode.

M: It shows the Burt Reynolds masculinity aspect, and the old lady prostitute aspect, which is not something you see on television with any kind of regularity. Or at all, ever.

S: I wish that this had stayed around a bit more, but at the very beginning of the Golden Girls, Blanche’s roommate is gay. He’s a gay man.

P: I don’t remember this character.

S: He’s in the pilot episode.

M: Then there’s that lesbian episode.

S: I think Blanche’s brother also ends up being gay. So they deal with a lot of different things. Like homosexuality, racism, ageism, drug abuse.

M: Do they have an abortion episode? Apparently “Maude” had an abortion episode.

P: Yes, “Maude” has a very famous abortion episode.

S: Well there is one episode where Blanche thinks she’s pregnant.

M: There is that.

S: Abortion is brought up. I think that every possible thing that could be brought up, is.

P: I just want to roll it back to “Maude” for a second. Probably the only thing remembered about that show these days is that there was an abortion episode.

M: And Bea Arthur. It was a spinoff of “Mary Tyler Moore?”

P: I think “All in the Family.”

S: “Empty Nest” was a spinoff of the Golden Girls.

P: Who was in “Empty Nest?”

M: Richard Mulligan. And I think David Leisure was in it. And there was a spinoff of “Empty Nest” too, I don’t remember what it was called. [Nurses]

P: How is it that Yakov Smirnoff remains such a powerful force in the culture, but David Leisure has faded away?

M: How does Yakov Smirnoff remain a powerful force?

P: He has a theater in Branson, and do you know about the Internet meme of “Soviet Russia” jokes?

M: No.

P: [Explains the genre.] But the whole David Leisure “He’s Lying” thing . . . do you know what we’re talking about?

S: No.

P: Joe Isuzu. [Explains.] This was an important thing, but it hasn’t survived like the Yakov Smirnoff joke.

M: To say that it was “an important thing” is perhaps to misrepresent it.

P: At the time . . .

M: It was popular.

P: At the time, if you were to say to somebody, which will survive 20 years from now, the Yakov Smirnoff Russia joke, or the David Leisure “He’s Lying,” what would they have said?

M: Neither one! That’s what they would have said.

P: Right!

S: Maybe we should talk about the –

P: 3-D printers at Cranbrook.

M: Barry Switzer being a fan of WVU.

S: We could talk about the Dutch racist Santa.

P: Where is this?

M: In the Netherlands.

S: In the Netherlands, Sinterklaas has “Black Pete.”

P: It’s his sidekick?

S: Slave. It has something to do with the Moors.

Our father: He has black feet?

M: No, “Black Pete.” It’s like his slave.

S: Slave-slash-sidekick.

P: He’s a Buckwheat figure?

M: I think he’s portrayed as a demon.

P: So he’s like his enemy.

S: Sorta.

M: He always has to keep him in check.

P: Because he’s Muslim?

S: A Moor.

P: Black Muslim. Nation of Islam.

M: Sinterklaas and Malcolm X.

S: Down with Sinterklaas!

P: They’re all racists.

S: Sinterklaas–one bad dude.

P: Lemme ask you a question. The other day I was down at a bar in Worcester, and the band was doing soul covers, and I thought of asking them to do Randy Newman. Not “Sail Away,” though, because it might come off as racist. But then they did “Brown Sugar.”

M: Famously racist.

P: You think it’s a racist song? Because you know about Media Studies. The average man might hear that songs and be unsure whether it’s racist, because he doesn’t have academic credentials.

M: Who doesn’t think it’s a racist song? Isn’t that the standard line on it, that it’s a racist song? Just like the standard line on Sinterklaas is that it’s a racist representation of Santa?

P: But if a band in a bar full of white people did something about Black Pete, people would think, “This is an inappropriately anti-black/anti-Muslim statement.”

M: People don’t pay much attention to lyrics. They would have to be really, really overt for people to care.

P: Wait a minute, how much more—

M: Especially Stones lyrics, which you can’t understand.

S: Bust magazine I think had a feature about, “Bad men, we love to hate them,” with classic misogynist songs. “It’s still great music, you want to hate it but can’t.” Like James Brown. You’ve gotta love James Brown, but he’s a jerk.

P: He was kind of a jerk, but he didn’t have lots of racist songs.

S: He beat his wife and had songs about being a man. Same thing about the Rolling Stones. “Under My Thumb.”

M: “Under My Thumb” is the classic misogynist Stones song.

P: What do they think about “Baby Got Back“? I think it’s a song that celebrates curvaceous women.

S: It does.

P: It says, I don’t care about the women in the magazines. People always say these magazines give a negative body image.

S: But not to Sir Mix-a-Lot.

P: Sir Mix-a-Lot is saying to the young women, forget about that stuff.

S: “I like big butts.”

P: If I write an autobiography, it will be called Even White Boys Got to Shout. I decided that a long time ago.

M: Well, what else are we going to talk about?

P: I think it’s time to scrape the bottom of the barrel. Which means it’s Barry Switzer time.

M: The article’s not very interesting, nevermind. We never talked about our responses to Bubble.

P: For our last interview, we talked about the upcoming Steven Soderbergh film “Bubble.” Very innovative, business-wise, released on DVD and cable around the time it came out in the theater.

M: HD-Net.

P: And set at a doll manufacturer where you used to work.

S: Yes.

P: Lee Middleton Creepy Dolls.

S: Well here’s the thing. First of all, I thought Steven Soderbergh was going to make a bunch of these Americana movies, in small towns with non-actors.

M: Supposedly he’s making 6.

S: But I haven’t seen any and I’m a little bit disappointed.

M: I don’t know if maybe he’s making “Ocean’s 13″ so he can fund his video movies.

S: He’s dragging his feet. That’s done! It’s already done! He’s rolling in the big bucks. He produces everything. I’m a little bit disappointed in that Steven Soderbergh.

M: He might do it. You don’t know! He’s coming up with an idea.

S: Well, anyway. Bubble. I need to see it again. But I was a little bit . . .

M: It’s not great.

S: I was a little bit biased, because I had certain expectations from working in the doll factory.

P: Do you feel that he caught the essence of Lee Middleton Dolls?

S: I think he fully caught the essence.

M: As someone who never worked or had been there, I feel like he captured the essence well.

S: I was a little bit mad, but whatever. The acting was perfect. The guy that plays the main character is the quintessential Mid-Ohio Valley male.

P: Really. Even moreso than Robert Mitchum in “Night of the Hunter”?

S: Well, he’s not evil. But if I was gonna have to explain a young man from the Mid-Ohio Valley, West Virginia, Belpre, Marietta, I would be like, “See that guy? How he talks? That’s him.”

M: Laconic.

P: Very flat vowels.

M: Yeah.

S: Close-mouthed.

P: A little mumbly.

S: Very mumbly.

P: A little dry.

S: Probably very nice boy.

P: Kinda whiny.

S: Somewhat nice. Somewhat lethargic.

M: The movie does kinda get going at some point.

P: This area inspires lethargy.

M: The movie inspires lethargy.

S: You know, probably someone that has a lot of potential, but it’s all lost because they’re sucked into the black hole of this horrible, horrible place.

P: Do we need to recap the plot?

S: Sure, there’s a murder.

M: It takes awhile. The opening portion is an extended, “Here’s the Mid-Ohio Valley, nothing’s happening.”

P: Do they have landmarks?

S: Some, but that’s another thing I was a little bit upset about. I don’t think he showed the desperation of this place enough.

M: I don’t know. I think they did a pretty good job.

P: Did they reference Daniel “Buddy” James at all?

M: It shows the desperation, but it’s not overdone. There’s also a certain beauty to it.

S: I want overdone desperation.

M: But then someone gets murdered, and there’s an investigation.

P: It’s not like we’re living in Rwanda.

S: By a real cop.

P: Yes, the actor was actually a policeman, right?

M: The last maybe 25 minutes are really good. And they go to this bar on Market Street that’s next to where the dollar theater used to be. The Bank Shot?

S: Oh, yeah.

P: I don’t know if I’ve been in there.

M: I’ve only been in there once, but it has a special place in my heart. Because once we were going to see “As Good As It Gets” at the dollar theater. It was like me and Doug and Bret and Ben. Bret and Ben went to this bar beforehand, Doug and I just went to the movie. And they came in about halfway into it, and I think they’d been drinking a lot, because they were really loud. Like yelling and trying to find us. The movie theater was packed, and they sat five rows behind us. They kept laughing and yelling during the movie. And that was because of the Bank Shot.

P: So “Bubble” was kind of a bust.

S: Not entirely.

M: Not a bust, but not brilliant.

S: You know what, for what it was, it was perfect.

M: It’s worth watching.

S: You have a bunch of non-actors, doing their thing. I thought it was a good effort.

P: This is Steven Soderbergh. I expect every movie he makes to be a great movie.

M: But they weren’t all great before “Bubble.”

P: What was not good? “Ocean’s 12.”

M: “Ocean’s 12″ is mediocre. “Full-Frontal” is terrible.

S: A lot of impromptu non-actors acting.

P: Goofing around.

S: No, everyone takes it seriously.

P: Maybe he should do all 6 of the films in the Mid-Ohio Valley.

S: I would pay money to see that. I would give up my time and come here to work on it.

P: I think if a good director made 6 feature films about the Mid-Ohio Valley, you could capture the whole thing.

S: I think there’s enough things around here.

P: The next one needs to be at a chemical factory.

S: Blennerhassett Island. Someone needs to make a movie about Blennerhassett Island.

P: You know, the whole Blennerhassett story tends to be hyped a little bit. But the whole phenomenon of that story being the key story of this part of the country, is kinda interesting.

S: And no one knows about it.

P: Did you ever see that musical, “Eden on the River”?

S: No. I would like to have. I don’t think they do it anymore. I think the heyday of Blennerhassett Island is over. Late 80s, early 90s.

P: Merry Christmas.

S: Merry Christmas.

Scott: Division and self-interest are not good solutions. Building up walls, keeping out people, not being hospitable, they’re not good solutions cause ultimately somebody’s gonna catapult a plague victim over your walls because of the bitterness. You’re gonna end up divided with each other. You gotta keep your values intact.

Mike: So actually Worcester’s success in dealing with people who are experiencing homelessness, or addiction, or whatever, maybe comes into play when we face zombie attack.

Scott: The compassionate cities are gonna fare better.

I edited the juror’s answers only lightly, but I removed some of my more aimless questions, and some of our conversational exchanges that aren’t really relevant.

If other jurors would like to come forward with their stories, please e-mail us at pieandcoffee@gmail.com.

Some would say that the details of deliberations can’t be revealed without hurting the whole process. But I learned a lot from this conversation, and I hope it will make me a better juror if I’m ever called to serve.

Pie and Coffee: How did the deliberations go?

Juror: Well, as you know, they took a long time. I believe four hours on Friday, another four hours on Monday I believe. You have me to thank for that, to be totally honest, because I was the voice of dissent on the entire deliberation process. The other people had made up their mind fairly early on in the trial, and if I had been chosen as the alternate, if I wasn’t on the jury at all, they would have been in and out in ten minutes with a verdict of “not guilty.”

I just saw things completely different from the other five jurors. I shouldn’t say–we actually came to a conclusion of what we thought the event that happened, with all the different testimonies, we came to the conclusion that “this is the event that most likely happened.” But the other jurors believed that didn’t constitute assault and battery, and I thought that it did. And so that’s where we really differed.

P: You guys also asked the judge, “Is this charge a felony?”

J: Right. I’m not sure who brought that up, but a lot of people were concerned that if we did find him guilty, that he’d be going to jail, and for an offense like this we didn’t want him to have a felony on his record. And judge of course responded that “you’re not supposed to consider those things at all.”

Yeah, the questions that were raised. Because the judge went over the definition of assault and battery before he sent us in. I was trying to argue the case that, according to the definition of assault and battery, he’s guilty, cause he fulfilled all those criteria. And the fellow jury members didn’t agree. A lot of them couldn’t remember the exact components were, so I had the judge print out the written definition. And from there, it became pretty clear to me. I believe the components were: did he touch the victim, did he intend to touch her, did he have any right or excuse to touch her, and was it without her consent or could it lead to bodily harm. And I thought that fulfilled, his actions fulfilled every component of that. And so by the law, I felt he should be guilty. Some of my fellow jury members also felt that yes, he did fulfill every component of that, but they didn’t agree that was assault and battery. They thought assault and battery was when the victim ends up bloody, or beaten, or with a black eye.

They were feeling pretty bad about that, and I said, “Well, we have to go by what the law is. I mean, that’s our job as jurors, to decide by the legality.” We’re supposed to interpret this law, and if you look at all the components, he checked each one, he did it, he committed assault and battery. But my fellow jurors had a different view of what assault and battery was.

P: So after about six hours of deliberation, you guys were ready to be a hung jury. What was it that changed your mind in the last couple of hours?

J: Basically the judge rejected the hung jury verdict. So I come back in–and they weren’t very happy with me in the first place, cause a lot of them wanted to get in and out on Friday, quite a few of them. So at that point the atmosphere started to get hostile–”hostile” is not the correct word, but more confrontational. Like they were clearly upset with me at that point. Cause they wanted to have the day free, they wanted to get out of there, a lot of them didn’t work, quite a few of them were retired on the jury. They just wanted to spend the day not working, they just wanted to get out of there and spend the day doing what they wanted to do: fishing, spending the day with their kids or grandkids.

So they clearly weren’t happy with me at that point. It was a tough situation to be in. After that experience–I didn’t know how long it would take to be a hung jury, and to go alone against five other people, it’s a really tough experience to describe, and you really have to have a sort of indifference to your fellow man in order to keep on fighting against the current. I mean, I think you really have to be autistic or sociopathic.

P: There’s a human element in the deliberations.

J: It’s tough to just keep going on against people like that, unless you’re personally invested in the case–which I hope they would have screened for that.

I mean, I didn’t know how long I would be there, I didn’t know how long we were gonna be there, I wasn’t gonna be that cruel to my fellow jurors. And also–it was just a tough situation to be in, I’m having a hard time expressing cause it’s such a unique situation, where there are five people against you. I knew I’d feel regret if I went along with their verdict. And yeah, I kinda feel bad about it, but at the end of the day–you know, I’ve been thinking this out. He didn’t intend to hurt her. That was the major thing we all agreed on: he didn’t intend to hurt her. I highly doubt he’s going to do something like this again. It’s not like we’re letting a convicted criminal go free and roam the streets. So I guess at the end of the day that’s why I eventually decided that if I have to give a reason–but I’m not satisfied with that. I wasn’t satisfied with the verdict, I wasn’t satisfied with my five other jurors. I felt they didn’t interpret the law as it was meant to be interpreted.

P: What was the jury’s opinion of the different witnesses’ credibility and testimony?

J: A lot of my fellow jurors agreed with the defense side, for the most part. They really felt credibility with the two young girls. They really thought that testimony was very key. They really thought that Sarah Loy tripped over the 13-year-old girls’ foot, it made a very clear impression in the jurors’ mind. And we all agreed on that, no one else could refute that. So yes, Sarah Loy tripped over her foot. I was trying to explain that the only reason she tripped over the 13-year-old girl’s foot was because she was moved, pushed, escorted in that direction. And so I thought the defendant, Larry Cirignano, should have some liability, should be held responsible for that. But the jurors didn’t agree. They said, “Well, his hands weren’t on her at the time she tripped over the 13-year-old girl’s foot, and so he should be let off the hook.” And I didn’t buy it, I thought that was a very fishy argument. Kind of akin to, I tried to explain: If you push me off a cliff, and I teeter back and forth and then I fall, you’re off the hook because your hands weren’t on me at the exact time I fell?

Like I said, there’s a lot of differences of opinion with me and the other jurors.

But to get back to the St Peter Marian student, a lot of the jurors believed that, Oh yes, Sarah Loy, she was pushed down, and the 13-year-old girl–or the 16-year-old girl, I get those two confused–that she testified that she hit the pavement, looked up, saw people were watching, and then went back to the ground again. And the five other jurors believed that. I thought that was something a 13-year-old girl would do. That’s not something a 28-year-old adult would do. And I thought yeah, the 13-year-old girl probably construed that as happening. Cause I work with youth, I’ve been working with youth my entire adult life. I see what happens with the 13-year-olds. They do things like that. But that’s not something an adult does.

I think there was a lot of bias on the jury. I think a lot of people had made up their minds on day one, honestly, without hearing all the evidence. Just from statements that were made.

P: Well, you know, it’s a bunch of people. I think the jury is asked to do something that’s impossible. That would be autistic, to listen to people making really passionate statements for three days, and come to no opinion about that.

J: It wasn’t a good experience for me, honestly. Like I said, I don’t like fighting with people. But that’s what I ended up doing for two days. And I’m usually the most easy person to get along with, I really am. and just fighting with people was against my nature.

But yeah, comments that were made on day one, like “I think the ACLU is just doing this for publicity,” and “She’s just probably faking it, she probably just wants the attention.” I mean, things like that. On day one! And this is when we’d just heard the prosecution’s side.

P: Watching the jury, I thought they were inscrutable. I couldn’t read their body language at all. Everybody seemed pretty unhappy the whole time.

J: Yeah. I actually enjoyed the trial, I enjoyed hearing the evidence. I’ve never been on jury duty. I liked that experience a lot. I was surprised I would, because I don’t watch any of those court shows or anything like that. Even when they were doing their boring sidebars, I was trying to figure out, “What are they saying?” The whole deliberation process left a sour taste in my mouth.

P: Thanks for being on the jury. Thanks for going through several days of misery on behalf of civil society.

J: Lemme tell you, it wasn’t easy.

We couldn’t believe a settlement wasn’t reached in this case. All of us thought this was a tremendous waste of the taxpayers’ money, and our time, and the court’s time, and everyone’s. It seems that this whole thing could have been solved with a simple apology.

If you want to talk about arguments in the jury. I believe, Reverend Payson? That was his name? One of the jurors said, “Oh, his testimony seemed really shady to me,” and I said, “Shady? This is the only guy to help her when she fell down. This was the most noble guy in the entire crowd. Everyone else is just standing and looking at her, and she’s down on the ground, possibly in pain, possibly hurt, no one knows, and he’s the only one who comes over.”

Those were the sort of arguments I was having in the jury room.

I should have also clarified that my fellow jurors were saying, “This should have never gone to trial, because she shouldn’t have pressed charges,” and I was saying, “This should have never gone to trial because he should have issued an apology.”

P: I’m not sure to what extent Sarah could have withdrawn the charges. [blah blah blah] People really want to make this about gay marriage.

J: I know! And . . . I was trying so hard to keep this element out of the deliberations. I was trying so hard because, I kept say, we’re not judging, you know, whether gay marriage is right, gay marriage is wrong, that’s not what we’re judging. It’s not going to impact the Catholic church. Our hole job is to judge: Did he commit assault and battery, but the law? I think people’s biases got in the way, is what I think happened.

P: Have you ever read about jury nullification?

J: I heard about this term after the fact, of course.

P: This sounds to me like a perfect case of jury nullification. This is where the jury says, we have decided that this should not be a conviction, it just doesn’t seem reasonable, and we’re not that interested in the law. And the jury is asked to not do that, but the jury can do that. Who’s going to stop a jury from doing that, right? Nobody’s monitoring the deliberations.

J: We all agreed, we came to a consensus on this one issue, that piecing together everything that happened, the most likely scenario was: Sarah Loy made her way through the crowd, put the sign at her chest on the first step, stood there for a minute, people yelled at her to get down, she took a step down, stayed there with her sign to the audience, Larry Cirignano saw this, came across the podium. This part were a little bit in a debate on, but somehow he touched her. I said it was probably a combination of having his hands on her shoulder, and then he switched to his hands on her back. So somehow he touched her, moved her into the audience. Pushed her, moved her, escorted her. And moved her into the crowd, and right when he turned around, she turned around to see who it was, and it all happened so fast, in that instant she trips over someone’s foot to see who had just pushed her, and falls to the ground, bruising her elbow, shoulder, and lightly hitting her head. And that’s what we all agreed happened based on all the different conflicting testimonies we heard. The ones that agreed, the ones that disagreed, and the ones that were completely out there, like the person that said Larry Cirignano never touched her at all. Where did that come from?

It was amazing to see how different people see the same event. Just amazing. It’s remarkable, that’s what we all agreed happened. It’s just that they didn’t think it was assault and battery, and I said, “Well, according to the law it is.”

End of the day, like I say, he didn’t intend to hurt her, he’s not going to do this again.

And we just all thought it was a tremendous waste of time.

Trackbacks

• Worcester Magazine
• A Jury’s Mind, Worcester Style
• Bay Windows

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Many US politicians, including several members of Congress, have taken the challenge to eat on $3 a day, the average US food stamp benefit.

Open Source did a great show about the food stamp challenge.

Related at Vox Nova: The Welfare State– Right and Wrong Reasons.

Hosts: me, Janine Duffy, Jim Henderson.

Recording with TalkShoe continues to be fun and challenging. My controls died about halfway through this episode, and there’s a long silence at the end when I restarted the controls so I could click “Terminate episode.”

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